Page de données généalogiques 669 (Pages Notes)

"Chièvres is located north-west of Mons and close to Ath in the present-day Belgian province of Hainaut. The seigneurie de Chièvres was divided between the descendants of Eva, daughter and heiress of Guy de Chièvres, by her three marriages. This division persisted well into the 13th century, as demonstrated by the charter dated 1230 under which “Rasse de Gavre et Hugues de Rumigni seigneurs de Chièvres” approved the donation to Chièvres made by “maître Gérard...curé de Chièvres”[581]."

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Ida (I14865) [Femme]

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The existence of two different noblewomen named Ida, one married to Gossuin [II] de Mons, the other to Guy de Chièvres, is confirmed by the 1125 charter quoted below. Roland, in his study of the seigneurs de Florennes/Rumigny, had suggested that they were the same person[568]. The suggestion proved controversial, the debate revolving around two charters dated 1143 and 1161 which name the founder of the abbey of Ghislenghien: Nicolas de Mons Bishop of Cambrai confirmed the property of Ghislenghien founded by “genetricis nostræ Idæ”, including the donation of “tertiam partem...in Gisbecca” donated by “Gascuinus frater noster de Mons” for the soul of “matris nostræ Idæ” and “aliam partem in eadem villa Gisbecca” donated by “Domina Æva quæ cognominatur Domoisuns" for the soul of "viri sui Ægidii", by charter dated 1143[569], and “Domina Eva de Cirvia que dicitur Domisons” [the same person named in the 1143 charter] donated “medietatem ville...Erbisul” to Ghislenghien by charter dated 1161[570]. The 1143 document also clarifies that Gossuin [III] de Mons and Eva de Chièvres jointly owned “villa Gisbecca” which, if Roland’s hypothesis is correct, would have been inherited from their mother. A rather garbled variation of the hypothesis had been indicated in the early 17th century by Gazet who said that Nicolas Bishop of Cambrai was “issu de la noble famille de Widon seigneur de Chieures et de madame Ide”[571]. The chronology would be tight for Nicolas to have been born from his mother’s supposed second marriage. The question is settled by the 1125 charter.

The parentage of the two persons named Ida is also controversial. The Marquis de Trazegnies suggests that they were half-sisters, daughters of Ada de Ramerupt, the wife of Gossuin de Mons being her daughter by her first husband while Guy de Chièvres’s wife was her daughter by Gauthier d’Ath[572]. This suggestion appears possible chronologically, although if correct the absence of the other daughters of Gauthier d’Ath/Ada de Ramerupt (see above) and of the son(s) of Geoffroy de Guise/Ada de Ramerupt (see the document NORTHERN FRANCE-VALOIS/VEXIN/VERMANDOIS) as joint suzerains of the 1125 property is difficult to explain. The most likely explanation appears to be that the two ladies named Ida were first cousins, each only children, and that in 1125 they were the only living descendants of their unknown ancestor from whom they had jointly inherited their interest in the property which was the subject of the 1125 charter.

No primary source has been identified which links either Ida to the Ath family. Boussu’s mid-18th century history of Ath is the earliest secondary source so far identified which makes the connection. Boussu’s text is confused, stating firstly that “Rase de Gavre” married “Ide d’Ath, seconde fille de Wautier Seigneur d’Ath” and claimed rights to Ath “du chef de sa mère, de même que de sa tante Beatrix”, and secondly that this “Rase de Gavre” was son of “Rase de Gavre, second époux d’Ide dame et héritière de Chièvres”[573]. Van Overstraeten names “Ide d’Ath” (mother of “Ide dite Domison de Chièvres”) and “Ide de Chièvres” (mother of Nicolas Bishop of Cambrai, son of Gossuin [II] de Mons) as joint founders of Ghislenghien[574]. It should also be noted that Bertha de Gavre, grandaughter of Ida wife of Guy de Chièvres, married Eustache [II] Seigneur de Rœulx, grandson of Béatrix d’Ath wife of Arnoul de Hainaut: if Ida and Béatrix had been sisters, the family relationship between husband and wife would have required a Papal dispensation.

Pending the emergence of further source material which indicates their family origins, the two ladies are shown below in the Ath chapter for convenience. "

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